Podcast Episodes

Client Getting (and Dude… It’s All A Game) – With Landon Porter

As I am 42,000 words into my book Experts Never Chase, I am doing a series of interviews with the most influential coaches and mentors who have impacted my work and process. No one has cut to the heart of client-getting in a more authentic way, than Landon Porter.

Landon is a master of creating conversations with your ideal client avatar (ICA) and these days, he is on a whole new journey with his Facebook group “Dude… it’s all a game”

You can learn more about Landon and other experts at https://bookofexperts.com/

Unknown Speaker 0:04

All right, we are back. It's time for Book of Experts TV and if you heard me last week, I had Adam Urbanski, one of my coaches and mentors here on the podcast and we were talking about doing outreach, like actually doing the business development reaching out and meeting new people in your business. Well, I'm super stoked today because I have another one of my coaches huge, huge influence on the work that I'm doing. And by the way, this is also a little bit of a, I'll be selfish about this. This is a deep dive for me because I'm writing my book. So I'm pulling in the people that have made the biggest impact on me, I want to give them credit because they deserve it. But I'm also self centered, I want to hear more about what they do so easily so naturally, and in this case, it's all about cleaning getting

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This is book of experts, brought to you by SalesMAP.me.

Unknown Speaker 1:21

Landon Porter, welcome to Book of Experts, TV, this is not your first appearance, you've actually been with us on our expert panels. But it's the first time I've had you in for a one to one conversation. So big win for me, hopefully, you'll enjoy this as well. I wanted to call you in on this because I want to talk about client getting you the work you've done the podcast that you have has been one of the most valuable one of the biggest impacts on me have really tried to understand this process of going out and getting clients going to the clients and not just sitting back and waiting for them to come to you. I know there's a lot of different components that make this work. But one of the things that I learned from you is to simplify the process. Can we talk a little bit for a second about how you got into this work? And then later in the podcast. And folks, you want to listen to this? Because Landon's got some pretty interesting things going on. He's been making a shift in his own business. We'll talk about what that is and why. Well, we'll sort of wrap up on that point. But I want to dial back to client getting and what how you got into this game man years ago?

Unknown Speaker 2:28

Sure. So

Unknown Speaker 2:30

going back almost 20 years ago, I started a sales career. I was a certified chef and nights weekends and holidays didn't work for raising kids. So I found something else that bankers hours, good money, something that I could do and pick up quickly. And I ended up becoming a sales guy like a full fledged old school in the trenches, sales guy. And several years into that journey. It occurred to me that I hated myself in my life and everything I had to do at work and on and on. And ultimately what it came down to was I was I had become great enough at closing people that I created a bunch of mess for myself, right? I had all of these clients that now I have to take care of and most of whom I don't like at all. And so I took some time to really examine my process. And I figured out what was actually causing that was me closing anybody that I could instead of identifying the people I wanted to work with, and then figuring out a process that led me to having only those kinds of clients. So that's kind of really where it started.

Unknown Speaker 3:40

About so in your world, what you just referred to like getting really clear about the people that you actually want to work with that you would enjoy that would energize you, that is the ICA the ideal client avatar, and I know you have a whole process around that. What initially drew me to you was you have this is literally when I when I talk about Landon and I and I mentioned his name and the work that you've done to other folks, I say, Look, you're gonna love him, or you're gonna hate him, you're gonna have a strong feeling one away one way or the other. You're not everyone's cup of tea. And that's one of the things I think you've really own your space in an authentic way and built a huge community who feels the same way they like that's what they appreciate about you as well. Was it was that your intention when you would? I mean, how did that happen?

Unknown Speaker 4:28

Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker 4:29

this I'll tell a version of this story that I haven't really told before. My sales career had come to an end several times. And finally the last time I was like, I am done, I'm done with this. I'm old enough to go do my own thing. I want my own thing. I'm going to start my own business, and I'm done. I just cannot take it any longer. It being having to do what other people wanted me to do. work for somebody else like not really be in charge of my life and My wife and I started a business centered around helping other parents who were dealing with with their pre teenage kids and the internet. And it started to take off, it started to get some steam. One of the things that came out in the first three to six months of that whole thing was me doing what I do. I make friends identify people that I like. And I go about making friends with them. And one of the things that really came out in the first few months of that was, I had a penchant for being able to identify and land clients and the people that I was communicating with at that point in that new business. Were trying to do that and didn't know how, and somebody created a Facebook group told me to go do a Facebook Live and tell people what I thought about getting clients and sales. And I did. And this whole thing, the sales gorilla kind of just took off on its own. It's been a really interesting ride. But from the get go, it was not my intention. My intention was to get away from sales. And what did I end up doing for three and a half years teaching people about sales marketing. So that's, that's where this whole thing came from. You know,

Unknown Speaker 6:13

sometimes sometimes you just get called to serve. And I think that happened for you a little bit. It reminds me of a year ago, because I think about this a lot, because we're almost coming up on a full year. A year ago, I was in Florida. I'm actually in Florida now. But we were on a trip in Florida. And I remember to this day, out for morning walk listening to the sales, gorilla podcast, and messaging you which by the way, I apologize because I'm at East Coast time, it was probably to way too early for you. But you know, saying look, you are giving away more value in your free podcasts that I've gotten from some of the paid courses out there. This is incredible information, specifically, your ability to simplify it, you know, breaking it down, and I just want to give credit like I share this with, with our teams with our clients, there's you only need two things you only need, you got to get your leads, and you got to be able to start a sales conversation that didn't come from me originally. That is, that is me channeling my lead my best land importer.

Unknown Speaker 7:16

That's awesome.

Unknown Speaker 7:17

Well, I want to give that credit. The other thing I also want to mention Landon is in you. And I've gone back and forth, because I continue to say I think I heard this from you before I heard it anywhere else. We use it pretty much almost every day. And in our world, we call it the four Gears of marketing. But this idea of building, you know, it's the reverse approach to what everyone is trying to do with their marketing, everyone out there is talking, you know, funnels and paid traffic and automation. And in this four gears methodology, that's fourth gear, like you can't drive your car out of the parking lot. And fourth gear you got to have first second third year. And, you know, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your take and why more people aren't focused on that first gear, this conversational outreach that you taught so well. And by the way, I want to tell folks, if you're not doing it leads labs not available anymore, but the podcast is still out there. So I can't encourage people to listen to that

Unknown Speaker 8:17

yet. So let's from a 30,000 foot view, let's look at what marketing actually is the automation of marketing, specifically, it's the optimization of a process that works. Well, if you optimize a process that works to get you clients that you can't stand. Even if it's effective at getting new clients, you won't like them. And eventually, right, we all hit these walls. So everybody seems to start there. It's the funnel this and automation that what is it you're optimizing for? you're optimizing for the ideal situation, the ideal people to give you the ideal amount of money and how do we how do we figure that out? Well, a lot of people throw 10s of thousands of dollars at copywriters and marketing specialists. The problem there is while they're capable of generating that lead flow that consistently turns into clients that you probably don't really love, even if that's the case, they're optimizing for something that they don't understand. And this is something that I found for myself when I was identifying who it was that I wanted to work with. It essentially came down to this question. And this is this is the the foundation of answering your first year question. If I was stuck at a Thanksgiving dinner in the woods with all of my friends and all of my friends with all my family and a client who happened to be in town, and didn't have anywhere else to go. And we get stuck there because of a blizzard for two weeks. Am I going to want to strangle that client to death by day three? Or is it going to be the most amazing time I could have ever had coming from that perspective? Think about it like this. We've all got our tribe. We've all got our crew, right We've got friends and family that we love their quirks, the stuff about them we don't really like, but we love them. They're our people. If we brought a client into that environment for several days at a time, is it going to be a natural fit? Or is it going to be awkward and suck? Most people have no idea that that's what they're actually after is the relationship. So the first gear is really identifying who those people are. So we can go find them in the marketplace and say, Hey, I'm this kind of weird, are you that kind of weird, too. It's so simple, yet seems like brain surgery.

Unknown Speaker 10:39

You do make it sound so simple. That's one of one of the things that I love about you. And you know, I set out a couple years ago to literally reach out fine, reach out and start working with the best the world class experts in this space, because this was something I just could not wrap around, wrap my head around. You are have been a huge influence and impact on me. But why are we so damn hammer headed about this? Because what I see you talking about is get clear on who you want to spend the time makes total sense. But why do we resist this so much as entrepreneurs?

Unknown Speaker 11:17

Because we often go after outcome goals, instead of value goals, we identify an outcome that we think we want, right? It's the score on the board. And we go after that, instead of going after the value. And this is this is the thing that we all do, right? We identify the outcome that we want this kind of client to pay me this kind of money every month for me to do this kind of thing. Fantastic three months into that it falls apart why it's the same with dating, right? Because we haven't identified our values why we want that, why we want to continue that. And then identify people that share those same values. Sounds really simple. Right? Why do you like your good friends? Why do you like the family members that you love, and it doesn't matter if it's two o'clock in the morning, they call you, you have no problem getting out of bed and having a conversation? Why is that?

Unknown Speaker 12:09

So one of the things I like here, Landon is setting us up a little bit, because we're going to finish this conversation with a cop with a talk about what he's doing now, which is really interesting, you guys are gonna want to hear this. And imbedded in what he just shared there, there's a little hook, we, I'm gonna hold you off a little bit more, because I want to go deeper on this conversation on reach. If that's first year where I'm going to go friend hunting, I'm going to find my kind of people, I'm going to actually pay attention to what they're doing, I'm going to enter their world in a non salesy sort of way. What does second third gear again, I'm using my terminology, but what comes after this outreach, what happens next? Sure, in your process,

Unknown Speaker 12:47

so most people approach the client acquisition or the client getting thing, the task from the perspective, I'm going to go find somebody start a conversation, and I want to get that conversation to this point, we have an agenda. The problem with finding friends is that's not how we go about finding and making friends, we don't have this agenda that we want to go to this concert, right when the world gets open back up, and we want to go find somebody that will take us to that concert. That's not how finding friends works. So second gear really is if if we've identified people that are our kind of people, and we go show up in their world, if we don't have an agenda, we can actually get to know that person for who they are. And we can give them the information so they can understand who we actually are. The agenda of what we're trying to get to is always front of mind, for people that are trying to get clients, if we'll just take that and put it on the shelf, that comes later. Because even if somebody wants the thing we do needs the thing we do and we like them well enough to do it with them. They might not be ready for it. Or they might not think we're the right person for it, or all of these other answers to that question. So first years, we identify the people and we go show up in their world. And the second piece is we actually get to know them. People need to feel heard and understood. And we don't do that by talking about the thing that we do that solves a problem that they've got before they even know who we are and what we're about.

Unknown Speaker 14:20

So I'm hearing two things that I think I'm gonna push back on and only because I want to, I want to voice some of the folks out there that may be hearing this and saying, Look, I'm an entrepreneur, and my business is starving right now. And the first thing I heard you say was, we're going to filter out all the other people who might have paid me money to work with the best group. And secondly, I now have to play a longer game with no agenda to build this relationship. I'm going to start in the meantime, how how are you answering that for the folks that have been through, you have a series of programs you've worked with clients again, we'll talk in a moment about what you're doing now. It's Very interesting that people want to know about. But how do you answer that? scarcity mindset?

Unknown Speaker 15:07

Because I know you've listened to several of my podcasts when I say this, you'd be like, Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. here's a, here's an aspect of my message that a lot of people either don't hear, or they don't remember, if you're starving, you got to do what you got to do to eat. That's short game, right? The problem with that is the vast majority of people, whether they're starving or not, that's the game they're playing is the short game, which means that they're just constantly making down the road harder and harder and harder for themselves. The fact is, if you're starving, you've got to eat. And if you're starving, and you suck at getting clients, and you don't know how to go about doing it, boy, you've got a long road to hoe, right? The point is, when you're at the place where you can determine your future 30 6090 days out ahead of you. Because you're not starving, there's an easier, more effective way to play the game of client acquisition, that plays to win the long game that automatically wins the midterm game and your near future or what's coming short game. If you're in a place where you're starving right now, like you got to do what you got to do to eat, right? This isn't, if we were in the mountains, okay? If we were in the mountains, and you were starving to death, you're not going to go sit on the mountain and meditate and hope and pray for you know, somebody to just drop a piece of meat in front of you. Right? What do you do you go find food. This is a part of my message that everybody doesn't really want to hear, you got to do what you got to do in the meantime. But when you're at the place where it makes sense to start playing a game for a different reason, it's a lot easier to win the long term, the long term game by identifying people you want to work with and starting relationship first.

Unknown Speaker 16:53

Yeah, I think that's one of the aspects that speaks to me most about this conversational outreach, this client acquisition by by literally friend hunting, which is go directly to the source to the people build a real relationship there. So the relationship building is long as long game when you do it, right, you can't go in with an agenda or you're just going to drive people away. We're talking about building real relationships and not chasing people. But if you go directly to them, because it seems like a lot of marketing is just throwing up hurdles and distance between you and the very people you should be talking to. And

Unknown Speaker 17:32

the the biggest the biggest issue with that is inhersight. Here's another part of my message that people don't really like fully get if you're starving for clients. And you don't have the ability to take the time to build the relationships that eventually bear way more fruit for a much longer period of time. You obviously don't have the skill set dialed in to just go start one conversation and convert that individual into a client, you're going to have to learn one way or the other. Right. That's the thing with client acquisition. And the problem in the marketplace that makes that so difficult for everybody is that that way has been done so poorly for so long that US consumers who wouldn't need the thing that you do are tired of it. We don't even want to hear about your cool thing. So unless you're really good at starting that first conversation, right, and this is these two pads, if you're starving for clients, because you don't have the skill set to go convert somebody, you haven't taken the time to build relationships with people that here shortly are going to want need the thing you do, you've got a choice, pick a path, you're going to be hungry for a period of time anyways. You can either start planting seeds or you can start tearing crops out of the ground your choice. Right and that's my take on it. I was a starving sales guy with two little kids to feed who didn't get a commission check for the first like six months the first thing I did and I had another job while I was doing that and learning it got to eat right? So this isn't like here's the magic answer go build relationships. Everything worthwhile takes time.

Unknown Speaker 19:16

Yeah, I love that and in for for folks who have whether you're with us live or you're picking this up on the replay. I'm going to give you a little hook here when when Landon said you know you're going to go start a conversation with one of these people you should be talking to one of the right people. Your the conversation is not going to start with your thing. If you want to know more about that I encourage you to go check out his podcast because there's he takes a deep dive actually several episodes. I think I landed I think at one point I transcribed the damn podcast episode. There was so many nuggets in there. I've got pages and pages but it's good stuff and it really changed. You know how I was because I was I was frustrated. I'll be honest, I was trying to do this. And there is a lot of people out we I do work in the LinkedIn space, it's become really muddy water over there because people are trying to make business happen. And they're doing it the wrong way in the driving people driving the very people that they could help impact the most. But they're driving them away. And I don't think they even realize why. So, as part of the solution, I want to talk about you use these words. And I want to go a little bit deeper on this, because this is this is our transition point, you talked about the game. And this, this very much appeals to me, because this is what we're we're making a game out of what we do this conversational outreach, that's the thing that's most interesting. People play video games for hours at a time games, hook into the very best of us, we bring our best psychology and best version of ourselves show up in that space, you're playing a game, a bigger game, and you've kind of hit it, I've been watching you over the last year, you've hit a transition point yourself. Let's talk a little bit about what that is. And, dude, it's a game. Hmm. So

Unknown Speaker 21:00

I'm gonna, I'm going to start with this. And

Unknown Speaker 21:04

for the people that that do know me from the client acquisition stuff, this will, this should make it really clear. My take on client acquisition is the most important aspect on a planet is relationships. And therefore, if you really understand that the most important relationship you can have is the one that you have with yourself. We're all playing a game. And we either really enjoy playing the game that we're playing, or it's really not the game we want to play, or it's really hard, right? A lot of people with imposter syndrome fill out of their league. Why is that? They're playing a game, generally, they're playing somebody else's game, they're not playing it well, because they don't want to be playing that game. So if you take the umbrella of sales and marketing off of how I see the world, if you win by really having a relationship with yourself, right, if I have a relationship with myself, and I take care of myself, and I treat myself Well, I don't make myself deal with people and things and circumstances that I don't want to right life gets really simple and really easy. Everything that I teach totally applies to sales and marketing, it comes down to this, are you doing what you want to do for the sake of doing it and you're sharing it freely and you don't care? Who likes it? And out of the people that do like it? You go I like you and I'm not really a fan of yours? Or is it like you've got to like my thing, you've got to like my things, your here's my thing you play with it, right? We're always going life in one of two ways, talking ourselves into what we want, or talking ourselves out of what we want. Everything we do is a game once we've got our basic needs met. It doesn't need to be difficult, but so many of us do. Right? Because we've got this agenda that we think that we're trying to meet. All the while spending our moments are present right here right now moment doing crap we don't really want to be doing

Unknown Speaker 22:59

that makes them It does. And I think you're giving us this bigger picture of what you've been working on. I'm curious, you know, just about you as a person what, what was the transition point? Or what triggered this? Because, you know, you have a big community on Facebook that you've been nurturing and building those relationships, exactly what doing it showing people the process and doing it exactly way. And that's, by the way, one of the things I really appreciate about you is that you walk the walk, you don't just say do this, but your I actually saw you doing it and learned as much from your actions as I did from what you were sharing on the podcast. But one day, your Facebook group, I went looking for getting clients without being salesy, and it wasn't there. And it was, dude, it's a game. And that that was a that was a big shift.

Unknown Speaker 23:50

Yep. So

Unknown Speaker 23:53

a few minutes ago, I kind of mentioned this idea of outcome goals versus value goals, right? Our society globally, Western culture specifically set up in a capitalistic way. I'm not going to try and unpack all of this, but we have all of these reasons for trying to accomplish what we're trying to accomplish, whether it's we're trying to prove something to somebody or we're trying to, to I become accepted, right, live up or beyond other people's expectations. There's all these reasons. We want this thing, this pile of money because well that shows that my life must look like this. Everybody and I'm not kidding, everybody that came through my client acquisition world 630 some clients, every one of them was trying to achieve an outcome and it's difficult to achieve an outcome they look at other people and they go well, so and so has this giant audience and they're always making these offers and people are always ranting and raving about how awesome their stuff is I do the exact same thing and I've had conversations with that person, I know my stuffs better like what the hell, that individual is not going after an outcome they are playing with their Kranz, they're doing daily day to day what it is that lights them up and excites them. And the byproduct of that the outcome of that is money and audience, ongoing stuff. Life's Amazing, right? So we're always going after this thing, that's a score on a board somewhere, here's my question, says, Who? Who determined that's the score that you ought to be going after. And almost invariably, it ends up being? Well, that's what my dad wanted for me, or my mom thought I should be or so and so because of this net, and the other, my wife, blah, blah, blah. And they never are, are in the clarity of I love waking up every day doing the thing that I do, because it brings me joy to do the thing. And because it's amazing, I share it. Right? That's I'm doing something because I actually value the doing of it. Instead of I'm trying to get this thing. Most of us really smart monkeys, when we're trying to get a thing, we keep it just out of reach, because we need something to chase. Unless we know what it is we want to spend our time doing, then there's no chasing. Does that make sense?

Unknown Speaker 26:30

It does. And I think it reminds me of that quote that people will they'll drive or travel for miles and hundreds of miles to you know, to watch me and burn with that with that tapping into that thing that just drives us and makes us who we are at the deepest levels. And it seems like you have made that shift. I see it in what in the work that you're doing for yourself with others in the in the space. And by the way, I want to point out to folks, most people, if they took a group of Facebook, a big community with I don't know what you are 14 15,000 members, it's a big community of people that you've built over the years, there was focused primarily on this, how to get clients, this conversation around how to get clients and make your business go and made this shift of the most important relationship is the one you have with yourself. A lot of people would say this, these are two different things, you know, and then you'd see this max s Exodus because they know you one way and but your community has made this jump with you because those relationships were built from that, that really authentic place. And so that's a credit to you. And oh, and and because I just don't see a lot of people being able to make that transition. Where are you going, by the way that the group that you want to check out on Facebook that I'm referencing in Atlanta, and you can tell us if there's a different process, but it's called Dude, it's a game. That's literally the name of the group. And it's referencing this bigger game that you are now playing. If you're interested in the in the sales, you know how to get clients conversation, go to the podcast, because like I said, there's, there's past episodes there that are absolute gold nuggets that you'll benefit from every bit as much as I did. But if you want to see what Wayne is talking about now with this more of a value based, most important relationship with yourself, what's coming next for you.

Unknown Speaker 28:18

So

Unknown Speaker 28:20

I want to I want to throw two quick things in there. One Also, don't forget that I basically abandoned my group my audience for six months. Right? I just stopped doing the doing because while client acquisition is the thing that comes naturally to me. And if people can get past my brusqueness, right, they can learn something. Right? I don't want to talk about that. Because it's an outcome. Here's the question, why do you want the clients? Okay, cool. Why do you want the money? Okay, cool. Why do you want the freedom? Oh, now we can start getting to what you actually want. Right? If we focus on what it is we actually want those other outcomes just, they naturally happen. Here's the thing. Late 2019, third quarter 2019 I was ready to move on, shut down the Facebook group, get rid of the email, stop selling courses I was done. And the question I was asking myself is why am I not happy? I quit the sales thing because I hated that. And I got happy for a little bit, but it didn't last. And I have this amazing business. I call all the shots. I do what I want. I don't have to do anything I don't like why am I not happy? Because I'm talking about this thing over here and in my, the, here's the truth of it. And this may sound arrogant. It's so kindergarten to me to make friends with the right kind of people that you want and then eventually identify if you can help them that it's like, I've got this PhD in client acquisition but I'm having to explain it to kindergarteners. I can't I'm just not there anymore. I'm not I don't have the patience. for it, cool, I'm not happy. What do you want? What is it that you want? I want this outcome, I want that outcome, I want this other outcome, I want to be able to do this, I want that freedom, I want these things. Fantastic. Those are all outcomes, what is it you want? And I started asking myself a question. If a moment is actually 90 seconds long. And what we do day in and day out with our time is actually what we derive our happiness from, what is it you want to do? And I was like, there's like 7000 things that I like doing, but none of them enough to do everyday all day long. And so then I said, What is that I find myself always being drawn to understanding deeper, learning more about spending time gaining knowledge, testing and practicing. And it was this idea of the relationship I have with myself, Why do I always struggle against myself? I do I always make it so hard. Why? Why do I have to go way around this way to just get this thing that I want? Like, why is if I can get me in alignment, and understand me and develop a relationship with me? And really do what I want with my own time. What is that? It's self discovery. So I can feel better about myself, when I'm by myself. What does that mean?

Unknown Speaker 31:20

Part of it's doing what I want to do with my own time.

Unknown Speaker 31:23

Part of that is doing that with people that I want to do it with, and not with people I don't, and on and on and on. Right. So all of these other things are downstream things, here's the punch line, you are the system within the system of your life. And if we look at personal development, from a systems thinking standpoint, what's the most upstream thing my ego and identity and the relationship that my true self has with those two things that I've constructed and how I encounter the world. Sounds simple. Until you sit with yourself and figure out all the stuff you don't like about yourself, and all the stuff that you don't think you're good at, and all the reasons why you're not worthy, and all of those things. And pretty soon we go all of the stuff that I've been thinking I wanted in life is all the things I can actually give myself if I understand the labeling system I use, I want 10 grand a month I want 20 new clients, I want this big business so I can bullshit impact the world. Yeah, why? If you understand why you actually want something, and the label system that you've been using to go about that. Now it's not I want the pile of money, I want the peace of mind. What does peace of mind mean? means that all my bills are taken care of means that I don't have to want for anything means that all of my needs and my family's needs are met peace of mind. But I'm chasing this pile of money. Yeah, good luck getting it. Right. So the relationship that we have with ourselves is really the most upstream of all of these things that we're trying to achieve accomplish. Get have, right. So, Landon, what do you want to do, I want to spend all the time that I have discovering how I can make that relationship better, stronger, deeper, more nurtured, more accepting, more forgiving, more loved, more taken care of. I want to give myself all of those things. And when I started doing that, all of this other outcome shit that I thought I was chasing, start showing up on its own. It's magic. It's Whoo, not really science. Right.

Unknown Speaker 33:36

So there you go. I think that to bring this full circle, I see you playing this bigger game. And interestingly, it mirrors what I learned from you over the last several years. There's a term you'll have to help me on this one, because it's not coming to mind. But there's a term that you use when, when a person is so I meet you and I I let go with the agenda. And I'm not desperate, you know, I'm just sort of okay with whatever comes out of it. what's what's the term that you use for that

Unknown Speaker 34:05

positive in different positive

Unknown Speaker 34:06

in difference? It seems like the bigger game that you're playing mirrors the the positive indifference that works so well, when we're meeting other people and not having to pull to force or push an agenda is exactly what I see you doing with this relationship with ourselves as well.

Unknown Speaker 34:24

Yep. It's it's a key tenant to the whole thing. How can you let go of that thing you think you so badly want so you can pull your hand out of that hole in the tree and you can actually get the piece of fruit you want. Right? We're so wired to We can't let go of this thing. So much so that we can't even see that piece of fruit up there. That's way better and easier to get.

Unknown Speaker 34:47

Interesting.

Unknown Speaker 34:47

Well, when I wanted again, from a selfish perspective, I wanted to get you on here. I very much appreciate you and the impact that you've had on me over the last several years, I sought out the best you are Not one of them. If not the you are one of them the best in the world in this space, I know you're again, you've you've moved into this bigger space is bigger game that you're playing now, but the the impact that you've made on us with our team, the work that we do with our clients is very much appreciated. I've just learned so much from you over the last several years.

Unknown Speaker 35:19

Wow, thank you for that.

Unknown Speaker 35:21

I appreciate you taking a little bit of time to share some back perspective of what you've done what you're doing now. And we'll have to get you on one of the expert panels soon as well.

Unknown Speaker 35:30

Sounds good, man. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate the conversation.

Unknown Speaker 35:33

See Alan, thanks.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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